Curse

HotSoup · Mar 26, 2011, 06:37 AM // 06:37

Doing DoA DWG way isn't even worth your time. You want to do a 2 hour run in NM that will probably fail in Foundry? Congratulations, enjoy your 1 marg, 2 styg and 3 torment. Thats what, 4+4+9=17. -4 for cons, wow! You made 15k in TWO HOURS! Congrats. No really, DwG is fine. Please don't nerf it, so I can continue to see idiot people waste there time.

HellScreamS · Mar 26, 2011, 08:17 AM // 08:17

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Originally Posted by Kosar The Cruel

Doesn't Glaiveway only work in NM DoA with the use of cons? And takes something like 2hrs to complete?

I wouldn't bother nerfing it. People will just find a new way or they'll move to trenchway or frostway. (I don't follow SC builds)

wait, what? Pugs, trenchway? Please tell me this is a joke

Missing HB · Mar 26, 2011, 08:22 AM // 08:22

That's not a good way to change things in DoA. Actually ,although like i mentionned DwG is pure faceroll , it's still an easy way for players to get their mallyx statue for HoM , it's not meant to be farmed over and over again....

In my opinion , they should turn down difficulty a bit in DoA and do some restrictions concerning consets , that's all.. Nerfing DwG only will just make less teams play DoA that's all...

Rushin Roulette · Mar 26, 2011, 09:14 AM // 09:14

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Originally Posted by Eowin Of Rohan

snip

Please write WHY YOU wich DWG to be nerfed. The reason that it deals a lot of damage and is used in one or 2 builds in DoA is not enough. that is only answering how the skill is being used.

What do you personally have against the build that makes it need to be changed?

DoA should be hard
DoA is already a walk in the park. no need to make it even easier
You have your DoA statue already and others shouldnt have it unless they do a balanced run as well?
Other reason [Enter Here]
Glaive was a family member and you think it is disrespectfull of players to drop her urn?

Bright Star Shine · Mar 26, 2011, 10:24 AM // 10:24

Well, tbh, I think it should be nerfed too, but not out of DoA reasons. I'm rich enough, and btw, armbraces are going back up in price, so I don't give a damn.

I think it should be nerfed, or at least toned down a bit because it makes any other conventionally good PBAoE elite skill look laughable and measly.

Shockwave: Max 180 Earth Damage to adjacent, 120 to nearby and 60 to in the area. That damage is also reduced by armor, and compared: 10e 1s 15r..

Double Dragon: only nearby (people have to note that DwG is IN THE AREA, which is just insane) little bit more damage, only fire. and 15s cooldown.

I vote for at least making it adjacent, and not in the bloody area, which is just ridiculous. Also either push up energy and/or recharge if you are going to keep the damage:

Destructive was Glaive: 10e 3/4s 12r Hold Glaive's ashes for up to 30...54...60 seconds. While you hold her ashes, all Ritualist skills have 20% armor penetration. When you drop her ashes, all nearby foes are struck for 10...82...100 lightning damage.

Et voilà, DwG is still good damage, but at least it's comparable to other elite skills now.

Bellatrixa · Mar 26, 2011, 10:36 AM // 10:36

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Originally Posted by Rushin Roulette

[*]Glaive was a family member and you think it is disrespectfull of players to drop her urn?

That's my reason and I'm sticking to it!

I do agree with Bright's point there about it being "in the area". That's... pretty obscene when you see it alongside some other skills :/

It's not a huge deal to me what the skill does, but I will certainly agree that the AoE could be notched down some so the skill isn't quite so broken. The damage ratio to energy cost and recharge is also pretty daft.

I won't say it's the most important nerf that should happen, but it's pretty ridiculous if you look at it in terms of numbers :/

And no, I have no DoA vendetta either :P As a skill, I can see that it's pretty damn broken, regardless of the useage. The OP's reasons differ greatly to mine as I can see that even with a nerf to DwG, pugs will still use it for low-efficiency runs or find another gimmick instead. OR they might actually develop some skills!

Sorry, I forgot there's a difference between wishful thinking and expecting miracles.

Eowin Of Rohan · Mar 26, 2011, 11:09 AM // 11:09

Hi.

I'm sorry it's beginning to be a doa nerf discussion, cause I know it already have been discussed several times (when ursan was used there, cry, dwg...)

The idea is just about the WAY to change the skill so that it's still as usefull as now but can't be used in a full-dwg team.

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And search is your friend

True. I checked all topics listed on the 5 pages on this forum. Just missed the fact that older topics are hidden somewhere. Noticed the pinned list too late, but I saw that the DwG topic referenced there is only a "dwg should be nerfed" without any better idea which is why I didn't delete this one.

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Yep lets nerf this skill while abusing others just as bad and popping consets.

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Nerf SY and SF, then we can talk about DwG.

The fact that other sc-like builds exist doesn't mean we don't have to care about this one.

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yeah just increase the skill recharge OR the energy cost (to like 10). it's a powerful skill, no doubt, but it doesn't need to be nerfed much, most rit spiking skills aren't too viable anyway since they all rely on a single, elemental damage type.

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Increase the recharge time to 12 or 15 seconds. 'nuff said.

That or make it Spawning Power (That would be silly, yet effective, until everyone decided to get their rits to DoA.)

I don't like the idea of nerfing the skill in a way that makes it less powerfull (ppl are just gonna stop using it, and it will be a new useless skill we get only for the elite skills title)
That's why I tried to figure out a better way of changing the skill

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DwG is just the damage, the monks but mostly the imba that keeps them alive to do it if u nerf DwG there will just be another build for the others to use with the same effect. The thing i like about about this clear is any prof can do it so any main char can farm it or just get the statue for HoM which for most other elite areas isn't the case. FoW is just easy if u now the route, UW unless ur in a guild good luck finding a team if u haven't got summons to show never mind the builds they want and Urgoz and Deep just don't have the same rewards as FoW/UW so other the SC guilds and a few friends doing it for HoM there's no party to join.

True about the imba, but it's another problem which we need to discuss separately (I saw a discussion about paragon rework ... maybe they are talking about imba there?)
Any prof can do it -> I don't agree. Any prof can do it in a balanced way as long as you know how to play your prof (and DoA being an ELITE area, that's not a problem. Elite areas were created for players who want harder game content after finishing all the other content which is here for casual players)
Fow is easy -> True. FoW isn't elite anymore, anyone who didn't even learn to play can do it just with 7 heroes. I think something must be done (new Menzies minions + Menzies himself ?) but that's not the subject here

The Deep/Urgoz -> that's true there's too few people there. Those 2 are fun, and it's a shame ppl without an active guild can't go there sometimes. But again, that's not the subject here.
Doa is different from fow/uw/deep/urgoz, and making doa easy isn't a solution about fow/deep/urgoz problem.
Uw -> I don't agree with you. Uw is an elite area, that's why I don't see any problem in the fact that not anyone can do this without a proper preparation / gaming learn. Plus, UW isn't that hard once you know what to do. Ppl who are new there don't need uw to be easier, they need exp. ppl to teach them instead of saying "go away noob". (but that's not the subject here either^^)

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Pros:
-DwG, if you look at it, is insane damage. 5e, 5s and insane damage, almost no profession has a similar skill.
-It caused armbraces to drop (this is a greed argument some people used)
-It's a gimmick faceroll that requires no skill outside of 1-1-1-1...

Cons:
-It allows small time players to finish DoA for their HoM/a little bit of money
-Greed is not a valid argument.
-Trenchway is a faceroll as well once you know what you're doing.

- insane dammage but has to be used closer to ennemies and can't realy be overpowered compared to other good balanced builds. I don't think nerfing dammage is a good idea.
- True.
- True. (and that's why ursan was nerfed long ago... why not do same with DwG?)

- Money isn't that hard to get for small-time players. Plus, GW is a great game with the max armor, max weapons (...) system which make anyone able to have equally powerfull toon. Thus, small-time players don't need big amounts of money (wht's the point in having rare weapons existing if they arn't a goal for bigger-time players and anyone can buy them?)
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- As said, I don't think the fact that other problems exist is a reason to stop caring about a single problem. I dunno what Trenchway is, maybe it need a nerf discussion too

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DoA should be hard
DoA is already a walk in the park. no need to make it even easier
You have your DoA statue already and others shouldnt have it unless they do a balanced run as well?
Other reason [Enter Here]
Glaive was a family member and you think it is disrespectfull of players to drop her urn?

- YES, DoA is an ELITE zone. DoA, FoW, UW, UW², The Deep and Urgoz should be hard. Players who still need to learn have plenty of easier content (much more easy content than the only 6 hard areas)
- DoA in balanced way isn't what i'd call a walk in the park, but isn't as hard as it was (cause many profs were boost). So NM is playable for casual players who still take time to learn the game, and HM there for players who want harder content.
- What's the point in having statues if we make each of them easy to obtain to everyone? Even for new players, the joy of obtaining it is quite lowered if it's easy instead of being a challenge (again, ELITE zone = challenge).
-
- YES

Swingline · Mar 26, 2011, 11:35 AM // 11:35

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Shockwave: Max 180 Earth Damage to adjacent, 120 to nearby and 60 to in the area. That damage is also reduced by armor, and compared: 10e 1s 15r..

Double Dragon: only nearby (people have to note that DwG is IN THE AREA, which is just insane) little bit more damage, only fire. and 15s cooldown.

They should just increase the range in pve for ele AoE spells already since mobs scatter and their dmg is nerfed by armor. I miss the golden age of Eles.

DoA sucks and is boring as hell so I really don't care about DwG anymore since in general pve Rits either run spirits or heals.

Rushin Roulette · Mar 26, 2011, 11:37 AM // 11:37

@ Eowin Of Rohan. How did you complete the following areas for the very first time?

UW (before and after the addition of Dhuum)
FoW
Deep
Urgoz
DoA

Did you do them Balanced, SC, Ursan, Cryway DwG, get a run?

Bellatrixa · Mar 26, 2011, 02:10 PM // 14:10

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Originally Posted by Eowin Of Rohan

The idea is just about the WAY to change the skill so that it's still as usefull as now but can't be used in a full-dwg team.

So this is another QQ thread about DoA. Did you actually bother to read the posts people have made regarding how slow DwG is in DoA compared to actual speed-clears? I don't consider Glaiveway to be a proper SC considering how long it takes compared to the other methods. It's a "faster than balancedway" team build. Hardly a speedclear.

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The fact that other sc-like builds exist doesn't mean we don't have to care about this one.

Imo Glaiveway is the least worrysome of the SC builds. Considering how many pug groups fail and how long Glaiveway takes... Compare that to the average 20 min FoWSC. Just sayin.

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I don't like the idea of nerfing the skill in a way that makes it less powerfull (ppl are just gonna stop using it, and it will be a new useless skill we get only for the elite skills title)
That's why I tried to figure out a better way of changing the skill

Uhm, your suggestion DOES make the skill less powerful... That's the definition of "nerf". Making the AoE smaller and/or increasing recharge/energy will be relatively harmless if the damage stays the same. It'd stop people from doing Glaiveway as effectively, which is what you want, no? What you suggested is changing the functionality of the skill, something you also said you were against.

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Any prof can do it -> I don't agree. Any prof can do it in a balanced way as long as you know how to play your prof (and DoA being an ELITE area, that's not a problem. Elite areas were created for players who want harder game content after finishing all the other content which is here for casual players)

Any profession can DwG with enough energy. I've seen warriors do it. Maybe not everyone has 8 hours to spend doing balancedway DoA. I know a lot of people with kids who can't sit at their PC for 3+ hours. Does that mean that they can't access elite areas in a manner that suits their RL constraints because of a RL choice they made prior to GW being released? Or maybe you'll pay for their baby-sitters so they can come do these elite areas with you balancedway!

Also, see points about pug groups in elite areas failing. If you've actually tried pugging SCs, you'll know that pug groups are hit and miss. I personally will only party with mostly alliance members or friends in the party. One or two pugs I can handle, but not a whole team of them tyvm. When I go to an elite area, I expect to complete it.

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Fow is easy -> True. FoW isn't elite anymore, anyone who didn't even learn to play can do it just with 7 heroes.

Same can be said for a lot of game content. Take the Vanquisher title. Does this mean it shouldn't be a "Legendary" title after the 7 hero update?

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The Deep/Urgoz -> that's true there's too few people there. Those 2 are fun, and it's a shame ppl without an active guild can't go there sometimes.

There are speedruns of these areas. There are hero teambuilds for these areas. People don't tend to do them because the faction through MTSC/MQSC is about 2...3x times more in the same time frame as an avarage Urgoz/Deep run. It's not profitable, therefore the majority of the playerbase will avoid it.

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Uw -> I don't agree with you. Uw is an elite area, that's why I don't see any problem in the fact that not anyone can do this without a proper preparation / gaming learn. Plus, UW isn't that hard once you know what to do. Ppl who are new there don't need uw to be easier, they need exp. ppl to teach them instead of saying "go away noob".

I believe that attitude is only prevalent in the UWSC groups where there's the lovely "show stones" requirement. I've certainly never heard of anyone in any guild/alliance I've been in being told to eff off for wanting to do a balancedway UW run. Even so, when you've got a lot of inexperienced people doing UW at once, it CAN be difficult. I do very much believe that if a group can make it through 4h, then the rest is much easier in comparison. But again, it requires a certain amount of co-ordination.

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- insane dammage but has to be used closer to ennemies and can't realy be overpowered compared to other good balanced builds. I don't think nerfing dammage is a good idea.

With the AoE, energy cost and recharge, it would be the most obvious solution.

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that's why ursan was nerfed long ago... why not do same with DwG?

Please... tell me where DwG is "abused" outside of DoA. Ursan was used EVERYWHERE, not just DoA. I don't hear of any other current meta SC where DwG is used as the primary attack skill. What you're trying to say is something like "nerf MoP because of the spikes in FoWSC".

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Money isn't that hard to get for small-time players. Plus, GW is a great game with the max armor, max weapons (...) system which make anyone able to have equally powerfull toon. Thus, small-time players don't need big amounts of money (wht's the point in having rare weapons existing if they arn't a goal for bigger-time players and anyone can buy them?)

Right, so you're saying that people who don't have 12 hours a day to play aren't allowed to want rare skins? Your comment there sounds quite elitist imo. "BAWWW I DON'T LIKE IT BECAUSE SOMEONE WHO ONLY PLAYS 8 HOURS A WEEK HAS A WEAPONSKIN THAT COST A LOT!". For small-time players (and newer players), money is a big deal. People want to get into SCs so they can afford things for their HoMs, work on titles and have items that they like and enjoy. There are still PLENTY of things out there which are exorbitantly expensive that are out of grasp of Joe Bloggs and even people who don't SC 24/7. Also, you may not have noticed, but GW is an almost 6 year old game with a sequel pretty close to release. Why not be happy for those players who don't have all day that they got that mini they wanted?

Also I think you need to define what you see as a "rare" weapon. If you mean Tormented Weapons, they're hardly rare considering the amount of armbraces floating around even now which you can simply buy from other players in Kamadan. Not everyone makes their money through DoA, just fyi.

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As said, I don't think the fact that other problems exist is a reason to stop caring about a single problem. I dunno what Trenchway is, maybe it need a nerf discussion too

No one said that DwG's current functionality isn't an issue from what I've seen. Just that there are larger issues with other skills before looking at this one. It's bad, but it's not terribad considering the limited "abuse" of it.

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YES, DoA is an ELITE zone. DoA, FoW, UW, UW², The Deep and Urgoz should be hard. Players who still need to learn have plenty of easier content (much more easy content than the only 6 hard areas)

For newer players, they are hard. The longer you've been playing, the easier you will find things and the more skilled you will become at the game and developing builds to get through various areas in faster times. That is how speedclear builds are made up -_- They are generally run/taught by people who are experienced in the game to others. I've seen many a person RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO up in FoWSC for example. An area you see as "easy". I also know people who struggle with Eternal Grove in NM. Everyone has a different learning rate and different views on what they find hard. For me, I will forever be cursing at the 4 hours it took me to finish Aurora Glade HM Masters with some allies or the hour and a half I spent chasing down a single Minotaur patrol in Anvil Rock, just the same as there will be people who are impressed at someone with KoaBD and those who have nothing but scorn for someone with only one GWAMM. People didn't cartwheel through elite areas when they were first released. Time has meant that things have become easier as knowledge of the areas has been gained and passed onto others.

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- What's the point in having statues if we make each of them easy to obtain to everyone? Even for new players, the joy of obtaining it is quite lowered if it's easy instead of being a challenge (again, ELITE zone = challenge).

There's a lot of people out there who have never set foot in elite areas, let alone completed them. The number who successfully SC on a regular basis are in fact the minority in the game. Please stop making it sound as though you can start playing GW and instantly walk into doing 200+ DoASCs a day. That is simply not the case. That is why people TEACH SCs. I'll admit the first time I did elite areas, I did them balancedway. I still enjoy doing balancedway runs when I have the free time or desire to do so. I also enjoy doing SCs when I want to earn some cash. Believe it or not, but some SCs are actually challenging, especially when you're not used to the build/class you're on or particularly familiar with the area. Heck, the first few times I MoPped in FoWSC, I was really nervous about screwing up. As time's gone on, I'm familiar with the area, the enemies, how they behave, my bar and what the rest of my team are meant to be doing. As I don't play my monk often, I'm not comfortable about taking her into FoWSC as a UA, quite simply because I'm not comfortable with the profession enough to risk letting my team down in an elite area. So yeah, for me, monking in FoWSC would still be a challenge, just as much as in a balancedway run. I think what you're forgetting there is that when you SC (and even more so with pugs), you actually have a lot of pressure on you to do your role correctly. Some roles are more complex than others to begin with. So yes, imo a SC for the first time isn't always easy for someone. Again, goes back to what I said about different people and different perceptions.

Back to the original topic of DwG, I stand by what I said in my previous post. It needs a nerf, not really urgently imo but the energy/recharge/AoE would make it a more "balanced" skill than what it is now. DwG is rarely used outside of DoA, therefore isn't that huge a priority in my eyes for the nerfbat.

Also, I agree there with Swingline's point about increasing AoE for eles. I think some of their recharges could be shortened as well, especially with how they're screwed over for damage in HM. But that's more a point for the Ele suggestions thread I guess lol

Bright Star Shine · Mar 26, 2011, 02:28 PM // 14:28

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Originally Posted by Bellatrixa

There are speedruns of these areas. There are hero teambuilds for these areas. People don't tend to do them because the faction through MTSC/MQSC is about 2...3x times more in the same time frame as an avarage Urgoz/Deep run. It's not profitable, therefore the majority of the playerbase will avoid it.s a certain amount of co-ordination.

Didn't read through all of your post, because I just don't care that much, but I do want to say something about this.
There are still a couple guilds that do Urgoz/Deep. [Lies] [Ssh] [High], they are the pro's, and I've been on runs with them. Deep casual: 13-15 minutes Urgoz Casual: 20-25minutes. If I'm not mistaking that is just about the same amount of time + reward a MQSC takes, no? Deep casual yields about 12k faction, Urgoz about 15k (you kill more). So actually, Deep is better than MQSC, because it takes the same time and yields better rewards. Takes longer to form though. Urgoz is less than MTSC.

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Originally Posted by Eowin Of Rohan

I'm sorry it's beginning to be a doa nerf discussion, cause I know it already have been discussed several times (when ursan was used there, cry, dwg...)

The idea is just about the WAY to change the skill so that it's still as usefull as now but can't be used in a full-dwg team.

True. I checked all topics listed on the 5 pages on this forum. Just missed the fact that older topics are hidden somewhere. Noticed the pinned list too late, but I saw that the DwG topic referenced there is only a "dwg should be nerfed" without any better idea which is why I didn't delete this one.

Also, @ OP, no offense, but this is complete bullshit. You didn't use the search button at all, because if you did, you would've found a thread called Nerf DwG, which looks kind of a lot like your thread, no? 19 pages of people ranting at each other pretty much. I'm glad you didn't revive it though, but I do want to point out that I can tell you now that this thread is going nowhere.

Bellatrixa · Mar 26, 2011, 02:33 PM // 14:33

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Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

Didn't read through all of your post, because I just don't care that much, but I do want to say something about this.
There are still a couple guilds that do Urgoz/Deep. [Lies] [Ssh] [High], they are the pro's, and I've been on runs with them. Deep casual: 13-15 minutes Urgoz Casual: 20-25minutes. If I'm not mistaking that is just about the same amount of time + reward a MQSC takes, no? Deep casual yields about 12k faction, Urgoz about 15k (you kill more). So actually, Deep is better than MQSC, because it takes the same time and yields better rewards. Takes longer to form though. Urgoz is less than MTSC.

Yeah, I was basing it on the ~1hr "balancedway" runs that the OP was banging on about what people should be doing, not the people who SC those areas ;D Having not SCed them myself but having done a fair amount of MTSC, I was comparing those figures.

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I do want to point out that I can tell you know that this thread is going nowhere.

Agreed.

Dami · Mar 26, 2011, 03:00 PM // 15:00

If you think it should be nerfed because it's too powerful, why haven't you taken advantage of it and gotten your gold. or have you already and don't want others to get rich too?
Sick of every skill being nerfed. Funny how anet takes note of these comments and does the nerf but does nothing to report an ingame bug.
*Goes off to try build before i can't*

Bright Star Shine · Mar 26, 2011, 03:25 PM // 15:25

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Originally Posted by Dami

If you think it should be nerfed because it's too powerful, why haven't you taken advantage of it and gotten your gold. or have you already and don't want others to get rich too?
Sick of every skill being nerfed. Funny how anet takes note of these comments and does the nerf but does nothing to report an ingame bug.
*Goes off to try build before i can't*

This thread isn't about nerfing it because of DoA-reasons. Tbh, I did 1 DwG FR NM like last July, and I was like "nop, never again", because it's so horrible. Just to point it out to you: DwG DoA is not profitable. 1h20-1h45 (I think) for a measly 30k on gems. If you run frostway and don't fail (lol) you'll be in there about the same time, only you get about 60k.

Also, if I may give you an advise, don't try it, it's really boring, dull and not worth your time.

Swingline · Mar 26, 2011, 03:33 PM // 15:33

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If I'm not mistaking that is just about the same amount of time + reward a MQSC takes, no?

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Deep casual yields about 12k faction, Urgoz about 15k (you kill more). So actually, Deep is better than MQSC, because it takes the same time and yields better rewards. Takes longer to form though. Urgoz is less than MTSC.

MQSC and MTSC will always be better than urgoz and deep sc simply bc I have observed 5 min MQSC and 15 min MTSC in the HzH and Cava alliances. Not to mention they can form and go in about 2 min and go for over 20 runs consecutively. My record for MQSC runs in a row is 37.

Eowin Of Rohan · Mar 26, 2011, 05:04 PM // 17:04

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@ Eowin Of Rohan. How did you complete the following areas for the very first time?

UW (before and after the addition of Dhuum)
FoW
Deep
Urgoz
DoA

Did you do them Balanced, SC, Ursan, Cryway DwG, get a run?

1st times :
UW before Dhuum = semi-balanced, me being ursan. (only had a W then). (so, yes, I played ursan a little... which was a bad idea, it didn't make me learn anything, and it's nerf was good. (other uw completions = balance)
UW with Dhuum : balance only, tried new strategies with my guild/ally.
Fow : balance
Deep : balance (I didn't even know there was sc builds before I read it here today)
Urgoz : semi-balance (I mean, the team with 6 SF eles)
DoA : ... Ursan. But still think ursan was bad, didn't make me learn anything, and even didn't make me able to finish an area I wouldn't have been able to finish with balanced team, cause I waited to be a little exp. before trying any elite area, and learned balanced doa with more exp. players short afterward.

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So this is another QQ thread about DoA. Did you actually bother to read the posts people have made regarding how slow DwG is in DoA compared to actual speed-clears? I don't consider Glaiveway to be a proper SC considering how long it takes compared to the other methods. It's a "faster than balancedway" team build. Hardly a speedclear.

Didn't say it's a SC. I still think it has to be nerfed.

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Uhm, your suggestion DOES make the skill less powerful... That's the definition of "nerf". Making the AoE smaller and/or increasing recharge/energy will be relatively harmless if the damage stays the same. It'd stop people from doing Glaiveway as effectively, which is what you want, no? What you suggested is changing the functionality of the skill, something you also said you were against.

Seems like I poorly explained what I meant. What I don't want is to completely change the functionality (good example is what happened to asura scan). I'd like the skill to remain an aoe damage, with ashes drop being the center of that aoe, and without changing area size or dammage amount.
I tried to explain something which makes the skill un-group-spamable but still as powerfull if use by a single player. My number may have to be changed, if you think they make it realy less powerfull (if having 1s delay before damage make the skill less powerfull, the 1s could be changed to 1/2s or even 0s)

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Any profession can DwG with enough energy. I've seen warriors do it. Maybe not everyone has 8 hours to spend doing balancedway DoA. I know a lot of people with kids who can't sit at their PC for 3+ hours. Does that mean that they can't access elite areas in a manner that suits their RL constraints because of a RL choice they made prior to GW being released? Or maybe you'll pay for their baby-sitters so they can come do these elite areas with you balancedway!

Again, I poorly explained what I meant. What I don't agree with isn't the fact that DwG can be used by any prof, but the fact that DwG is the way which make every profession able to do DoA.
I agree not everyone has 8+ hours to spend doing balance, but balanced DoA doesn't take 8+ hours as long as you are prepared, have good builds, and play well. 2-3 hours are enough. (many professions vere buffed, and strategies were discovered, since the early 8+ hours DoAs folowing the NF release)

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Same can be said for a lot of game content. Take the Vanquisher title. Does this mean it shouldn't be a "Legendary" title after the 7 hero update?

True.
(but I still hope for some FoW improvement. I realy like uw update and Dhuum, I'd love to have to fight Menzies

)

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Please... tell me where DwG is "abused" outside of DoA. Ursan was used EVERYWHERE, not just DoA. I don't hear of any other current meta SC where DwG is used as the primary attack skill. What you're trying to say is something like "nerf MoP because of the spikes in FoWSC".

True.

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Right, so you're saying that people who don't have 12 hours a day to play aren't allowed to want rare skins? Your comment there sounds quite elitist imo. "BAWWW I DON'T LIKE IT BECAUSE SOMEONE WHO ONLY PLAYS 8 HOURS A WEEK HAS A WEAPONSKIN THAT COST A LOT!". For small-time players (and newer players), money is a big deal. People want to get into SCs so they can afford things for their HoMs, work on titles and have items that they like and enjoy. There are still PLENTY of things out there which are exorbitantly expensive that are out of grasp of Joe Bloggs and even people who don't SC 24/7. Also, you may not have noticed, but GW is an almost 6 year old game with a sequel pretty close to release. Why not be happy for those players who don't have all day that they got that mini they wanted?

Also I think you need to define what you see as a "rare" weapon. If you mean Tormented Weapons, they're hardly rare considering the amount of armbraces floating around even now which you can simply buy from other players in Kamadan. Not everyone makes their money through DoA, just fyi.

I don't say I don't want casual players to be able to have fun and be happy with cool weapons.
I NEVER said everyone makes their money though DoA, I was just answering to the money argument as a "cons" to DwG nerf.
What I mean is just that in a game like GW, there should be cool content for everyone, and still some fun goals for intensive players.
Would be cool if every player set himself cool goals which depend on the time they want to/can spend on the game, instead of wanting everyting to be changed so that he can access them.
For example, I don't want rarest items for be easier to get or Z/pvp title max ranks to be lowered. I just know they are here for players who play more than me and/or are more skilled than me, and that's cool for them to have some reward for playing more/being a better player than me. If Anet makes so that I can have all those things, it's be bad for them. I already have enough cool goals for my playing level.

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No one said that DwG's current functionality isn't an issue from what I've seen. Just that there are larger issues with other skills before looking at this one. It's bad, but it's not terribad considering the limited "abuse" of it.

True.

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For newer players, they are hard. The longer you've been playing, the easier you will find things and the more skilled you will become at the game and developing builds to get through various areas in faster times. That is how speedclear builds are made up -_- They are generally run/taught by people who are experienced in the game to others. I've seen many a person RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO up in FoWSC for example. An area you see as "easy". I also know people who struggle with Eternal Grove in NM. Everyone has a different learning rate and different views on what they find hard. For me, I will forever be cursing at the 4 hours it took me to finish Aurora Glade HM Masters with some allies or the hour and a half I spent chasing down a single Minotaur patrol in Anvil Rock, just the same as there will be people who are impressed at someone with KoaBD and those who have nothing but scorn for someone with only one GWAMM. People didn't cartwheel through elite areas when they were first released. Time has meant that things have become easier as knowledge of the areas has been gained and passed onto others.

True.

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Also, @ OP, no offense, but this is complete bullshit. You didn't use the search button at all, because if you did, you would've found a thread called Nerf DwG, which looks kind of a lot like your thread, no? 19 pages of people ranting at each other pretty much. I'm glad you didn't revive it though, but I do want to point out that I can tell you now that this thread is going nowhere.

Maybe the "bullshit" word should be there...
As I already said, I first didn't notice that many threads were hidden somewhere, and I just went though the 5 pages of the Sanitarium in order to be sure not to miss any topic.
And, as already said too, I found that thread after noticing my mistake, but the thread just begins with a "dwg should be nerf" message. What I wanted to do wan't a thread about nerfing DwG or not, but about the way it could be changed.
You say this thread is going nowhere. You're right, cause we began a discussion about wether DwG teams are a good thing or not (+ about many side-topics which are interesting but arn't the main subject^^)

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If you think it should be nerfed because it's too powerful, why haven't you taken advantage of it and gotten your gold. or have you already and don't want others to get rich too?

Not because it's too powerfull, but because it disfigures DoA. I'm not rich, I didn't take advantage of it, and especially, I don't want to prevent other people from getting money

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To conclude, I just thought DwG would be nerfed sooner or later because of the "jurisprudence" of Ursan and so many other builds which made elite areas or farms too easy (RoJ, 600, ...). What I call "sooner or later" could be tomorow as well as in 2014.
My idea was to explain that most obvious ways of nerf arn't a good idea imho, and how the skill could be changed in order to avoid any impact on it's "fair" use and still stop the DoA thing.

But as Bellatrixa pointed out, DwG isn't an "ursan2" since ursan was used everywhere, so I may never be nerfed.

Secondly, there is no truth about the arguments why DwG in DoA is good or bad, but only opinions. We could go on discussing for years.
That's why opening that thread was maybe a mistake, cause I should have known ppl were gonna explain why they thing there's nothing to be done about DwG in DoA.

Bright Star Shine · Mar 26, 2011, 05:10 PM // 17:10

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Originally Posted by Eowin Of Rohan

Not because it's too powerfull, but because it disfigures DoA. I'm not rich, I didn't take advantage of it, and especially, I don't want to prevent other people from getting money

Well, this is actually not a good argument. The same argument is used by anti-SF people to say that SF disfigures the entire game. DwG should be nerfed because it's ridiculously broken compared to other skills that do approximately the same, as pointed out a couple posts up.

WarcryOfTruth · Mar 27, 2011, 12:26 AM // 00:26

People just care too much about speed. While I understand, that as a game is played, areas should become easier and easier, and take less and less time, there should be limit. While DwG is by no means fast compared to balanced, it reduces the difficulty to a level of lolface. But, the only issue I have with it, if at all really, is what it does to the area. There's no thinking involved anymore there. You can have half a brain and still beat it, that to me is the problem. I've been playing GW as long as I have because of the amount of thinking that I have to do. I don't WANT to go into any area, whether its an area like Underworld, where I basically live, or a place like Domain of Anguish, that I dislike going to, and EXPECT it to be easy. I enjoy the challenge these areas have, and am disgusted by how sad it has gotten regarding clearing them. But meh, I guess that's just how it happens.

tl;dr, give DwG Exhaustion, then it will be somewhat like a PBAoE Obsidian Flame. Strong, but use too much and you'll be hurting.

Essence Snow · Mar 27, 2011, 06:11 AM // 06:11

Guess you missed the bright red letters READ FIRST!

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1. Search!

Always use the search button before posting a new thread to see if your ideas been suggested before. it is also advised that you check the stickied index of ideas to check if your idea has already been posted.

It's rule number 1...lol.....expect this to be closed as soon as a Sardelac mod sees it

reaper with no name · Mar 27, 2011, 07:07 AM // 07:07

I still fail to see how this is an "exploit". All it does is allow bad players to complete DoA in NM in a really long amount of time. It's not inflating the game economy, trivializing an elite area (remember, it's only effective in NM, and it takes forever), or rendering an entire profession obsolete.

The real issues are that DoA is poorly designed, and the elite areas in general are far too difficult in NM (but ironically, not difficult enough in HM).

/notsigned